132. Julianna Yau Yorgan: How to be Unapologetically Introverted and Unstoppable, learn Practical Insights from her career at Blackberry, Project Management & Coaching in Canada & Spain

In this episode of the 'How I Got Hired' podcast, I interview Julianna Yao Jorgen, a leadership and career coach who specializes in helping introverts advance their careers.
Juliana shares insights from her extensive corporate career across various geographies and industries, including her strategic career moves to work at BlackBerry and eventually transition to coaching. We discuss the myths surrounding introversion, the importance of visibility without boastfulness, and the realistic approach to transitioning from corporate roles to entrepreneurship. Juliana emphasizes the importance of accepting help from one's network and being unapologetically oneself in professional settings.

Follow Julianna:
Resources specially made for HIGH Podcast: https://jyy.link/high-podcast/
Website: https://www.jyycoaching.com/
Podcast: https://www.jyycoaching.com/podcast/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliannayauyorgan/

-------------------------

Liked this episode? A few things:

1. Share the podcast with three of your closest friends! And please leave a great review on Apple Podcasts here or Spotify here (tap on the three-dot menu under the cover art of the podcast) , as it would mean a lot to me and hopefully help others discover it.

 2. You will love my emails called Charge-Up! They're no fluff no spam, where I share my favourite career insights from movies, TV shows, news and my own personal experiences, that I don't share anywhere else. Make sure you sign up here!  

3. Come hang out with me LIVE on LinkedIn and Youtube every Friday at 2 pm CET where I answer your questions and often bring in fab guests:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sonalbahl/ 

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/SuperChargeYourself

4. Share your favourite takeaways and tag me on your Instagram and LinkedIn. 

Transcript

 Hey there, welcome to the How I Got Hired podcast. I'm your host Sonal Bahl, former HR director and founder of Supercharge. And I have had an insane corporate career that started out in India, then moved to South America and then to Europe.  Often working only in Spanish or French, which I had to learn there from scratch.
 
 Now, why do I call my career insane? Because while I've experienced complete highs, like what? Working across geographies and industries while navigating challenges like needing visa sponsorships,  zero network locally during recessions, and often while being a new mom to one of my two kids, I have seen career heartbreak and multiple layoffs as well.
 
 As a career strategist, I strongly believe that a fulfilling career is a birthright and not a privilege. Thank you. For the lucky few who have access to prestigious education, capital, and networks. And now I am on a mission to democratize access to high value career advice by designing affordable digital forces with my YouTube channel and this podcast right here.
 
 Where we learn together from ordinary people like you and me and how they created extraordinary career success.  I hope this episode reminds you that if they could do it, you can do it too. Now get ready to get supercharged. Let's go. 
 
 Hey, welcome back. Today's guest is Julianna Yau Yorgan, a leadership and career coach who claims to be unapologetically  And what she does is help other introverts to further their career without doing all the uncomfortable extroverted things. Now, if you are an introvert, you know exactly what she's talking about.
 
 So  a little bit about Julianna's background. She's lived in Canada, Chinese origin, now moved to Spain. And we'll talk about that. Why Spain? And, and she's had kids. This international career in primarily in project management for over 20 years. And what she does today is coaching others on how to find success on their own terms.
 
 So I am so looking forward to learning from her journey. Julianna, welcome to the show.  Thank you so much for having me.  My pleasure, Julianna. I want to first start off because I said the word introverted, I think at least three times. And I don't know about you, but I don't like how these terms, how these concepts are relayed out in mass media in terms of what they mean.
 
 And, you know, that classic sort of narrative of introverts are like this, extroverts are like this. And, and it's almost like introverts are, you know, extroverts are better.  I don't know. I see that when it comes to hiring, you know, recruiting for senior roles and, and so many other things. I want to debunk a few myths with you.
 
 I know you're not like a resident expert on all things introvert, but you have, you have lived experience. So I want to, I want you to share from your experience. How do you see,  the whole introvert versus, and I'm saying versus on purpose, introverts versus extroverts, and how do you even like define the whole thing?
 
 Yeah, 
 
 so I, I actually see it very similarly and have lived that myself and so have so many introverts I, I talk to and work with where Especially in North American and European societies, extroverts are kind of the golden goal for everyone. You want to be like this super, uh, social person with a big, loud personality, riling up crowds and getting all the attention.
 
 And that's sort of what  many of the cultures in these geographies. are, are kind of aiming towards. And like you said, even in hiring, there are a lot of biases  in favor of more extroverted qualities and  against more introverted qualities.  And  it's interesting because  I think the way a lot of people see introversion and extroversion isn't necessarily how it's. 
 
 More formally defined by people who study it professionally.  So the sort of the golden rule that people use are the golden yardstick for whether you're more or less introverted or extroverted is how you recharge and where you find your energy.  So introverts tend to need more time. Either alone or with maybe just one or two people to recharge when they're exhausted, when they're depleted of their energy.
 
 Whereas extroverts are  energized by being surrounded by people, by having and engaging in discussions with a whole bunch of people, maybe even getting into a very heated conversation. And, and introverts.  Generally don't like that conflict. They'd rather be with somebody who's comfortable. They're like, heck no, get away from me.
 
 Why are you arguing with me? I don't understand. Why are you still here? Exactly. The meeting's done, go away.  So I think that's, that's really the core of it.  Especially since I've started talking about introversion more publicly, I've had people say, oh, well, introverts are just antisocial. They don't like to leave the house.
 
 Uh, they don't know how to lead meetings. They can't be leaders. All these things that are  very negative and also not true.  Very, 
 
 very negative and very narrow. Yes. They haven't seen the full picture.  
 
 Exactly. And there's so many examples of people in, uh, acting and singing positions or as corporate leaders who are introverts and you just don't see them that way because the way they do their job is different, but they're still able to show up and do the job.
 
 Well, 
 
 100%. And I think that, um,  one of my most favorite and least favorite things at the same time.  Is when a leader you admire from far away or somebody you follow somebody you like you're watching their interview and suddenly they sort of slip in that they're introverted and you see the reactions. No way.
 
 I wouldn't guess that because that I love that because first thing good. They're calling them. They're not calling out. There's nothing bad to call out. It's good that they're naming it. Yes. Um, and secondly, Thirdly, When people show the surprise, they are showing their ignorance, which is also hopefully what it means is they are getting educated because it takes all kinds to be successful in today's world and not only one kind.
 
 I think the world is in enough trouble as it is with one type.  Of leadership.  
 
 It really is. And I've lived that myself being a leader in corporate where people were like, Oh, but how are you an introvert? You do all these, you talk to VPs and senior executives, you do so many presentations and, and speak in front of like hundreds of people to give updates, but you're not an introvert.
 
 Like, 
 
 well, yes, 
 
 I am. That doesn't mean I can't do those things. I just. do them very differently. I prepare differently. 
 
 Exactly. Yes, I am. And it's not an attack on capability. It's literally like the color of my hair. It doesn't mean anything. Right.  And, and, uh,  very true. And in your case also, Julianna, which, um,  you know, there's an intersectionality of it.
 
 There is a woman soft spoken.  Asian, introverted.  She couldn't possibly lead a meeting. You know, I'm sure you've, you faced resistance, right? Um, so, um, I love this, um, the, the way you defined it. Obviously there's much more to it. You could do a whole PhD on it, but, um, I want to ask you, what do you think about this?
 
 Um, I'm curious.  I've always thought I've extroverted my whole life. And  then I started sort of working from home even before COVID, so 2019  and then COVID happened and I think that was the accelerator.  Is it possible to  change how we recharge? Because I do an event. 200 people.  I need to take a nap for a few hours. 
 
 It's been great, but I'm like, uh,  I need to do nothing. I need to literally wedge out on the couch and, and maybe watch a movie or literally just aimlessly scroll.  Do you, do you see that with people?  
 
 I do. I've actually talked to a lot of, uh, highly extroverted people who've talked about how  as they mature, as they move into different phases of their lives.
 
 Some of their introverted energies are coming in stronger and they're noticing a bit of a shift,  and they're, they're like, okay. When I was younger, I used to want all these things and want to be surrounded by people all the time. But  whether it is a change in the demands of their life or their priorities, or just shifting energies naturally in their bio rhythms, they're, they're needing a little bit more alone time than they're used to. 
 
 But I, I also find that, um.  Another thing for a lot of introverts is we. We may not necessarily know that we're introverted depending on how we were raised and how we learn to survive in the world.  
 
 How do you know then Julianna, is there like a test?  
 
 Well, there are so many quizzes and tests out there. Uh, but I think it really does come back to that, that energy piece of, do you, are you drained when you're pushing yourself to do all the extroverted things that you Behaviors that are expected to you of you, because a lot of introverts may not even have known about this introvert extrovert thing, and they were just told, okay, you need to get over your shyness, or You need to be louder.
 
 You need to speak more. You need to do all these things that are unnatural  and you need to learn behaviors of being an extrovert so that you can succeed in your career. But if you're always tired when you do those things, that's probably a pretty good indication that  maybe not that you're 100 percent introverted, but that you've bought some introversion in you that you need to kind of look at and explore. 
 
 Sure. I totally understand that. And it's not necessary that introverts are shy. I'm so tired of this when people say this again and again. Social anxiety.  Oh my gosh. Um, so talk to us about your time at corporate. You know, I alluded to it over 20 years you spent in so many companies, including BlackBerry.
 
 Back in the day. Yes. Back in the day when I, I loved my BlackBerry. I was so loyal to those little digit, you know, those little keypads. I miss my keyboard. Oh my gosh. I had way, way less autocorrect issues.  So, uh, you've done so many different things, Julianna, over these two decades.  Knowing in 2024, knowing what you know today, when you look back, um, talk to us, if this is my signature question, I love asking, um, cause the show is called how I got hired, which role  or roles did you enjoy the most where you felt like you could just truly be yourself?
 
 And we want to dig deeper with you on how did you get hired and stand out from the rest of the people?  
 
 I love that question. I'm so glad it's your signature question. So  I've got 2. 1 is for sure my time at BlackBerry. Uh, at the time before I got hired at BlackBerry, I was working mostly as I'll say, a glorified data entry person in an insurance company.
 
 And I always knew I wanted to work for BlackBerry. I'm a big nerd and I love my BlackBerry. And I just wanted to do whatever I could at that company. I just wanted to be part of that. And  I was looking at it and trying to find jobs that I could apply for, but they didn't need data entry people. They're a tech company. 
 
 So I was really looking at, um. What I could do there and what I could do at my current company so that I could move internally from my role at my current company into a role that I could then bridge over to BlackBerry. Maybe if I needed to at another company in between.  So it was. Looking very  analytically at  what are they hiring for?
 
 Like, what's the type of skill set? What's the type of role that they actually actively have? And what's the opportunity for me that I can do that type of work, but start where I was so that they wouldn't be like, oh, well, you just wanted everybody wanted to work at blackberry at the time. And and I lived in Waterloo where that was sort of the. 
 
 The place to be, so there was so much competition that I knew I couldn't jump from data entry into any job at blackberry. It was just  not possible.  So, I discovered this type of work called business analysis, which is how I got into project work and it was really through talking to some of my peers at work at the company at the time.
 
 And they're like, oh, yeah, that's my job. And I was just very open and curious about what that work was like, what her normal day was and started working really closely with her  moved into a business analyst role there and worked my way to blackberry through both experience and networking.  So I was very vocal with my friends and, uh, my most trusted peers at work about, this is, this is my end goal.
 
 My end goal is to, to get into BlackBerry. So once I had enough experience as a business analyst at that company,  and I started seeing people who were moving over there, they started to look out for me and say, Oh, Hey, here's some roles you might want to consider.  And it was actually through.  A friend I met through my husband who said, Oh, my gosh, Julianna,  they just posted your job.
 
 Like, this is the job you should have. And I looked at it. I'm like, oh, my gosh, yes, I meet all of those things and applied, got the job.  But it. I think for anybody looking on the outside in, it's like, oh, it was sort of magical that she had this career path that led her into that company, but I had planned every step of the way. 
 
 Yeah, I don't like those cop outs about how lucky you are. You did a lot of reverse engineering behind the scenes in the dark. So we don't see that. We see Oh, you made the move. But I like how methodical and structured and intentional you were. So true to your style of doing things, you know, not like this random meeting, but it's, it's good.
 
 Um, you, you talked about, um,  Okay, uh, this is what I want to do, and you knew that you could do it without all of this. It was just going to be longer, harder, takes too long, and you were like, okay, what is the So the hard work, my mentor says this, the hard work, behind the scenes, is the shortcut.  There is no other way to avoid, right?
 
 And what was the second one, Julianna?  
 
 The second one was sort of, sort of accumulation of my entire career in portrait. And it was the chance to  Start and grow my own project team.  So I've been in project work for a really long time, finally moved into a managerial position. And I say finally, because I wasn't always ready for it.
 
 It wasn't something that I wanted for a very long time.  And although I had a team as a manager. It was a team that was sort of given to me. It was a team that I got hired into lead, but the team was existing.  And I really wanted to create something from nothing and build a team  for a specific need, but that was so specific.
 
 Right, like, in terms of timing it, the company had to decide that they needed a new team to take on a new challenge.  So there were a few different things. I worked on 1 was sort of long term preparing myself for the move from manager to director.  And that was a lot of, like you said, reverse engineering type work, where I really had to understand what they expected of somebody at a director level, what types of skills and experience they wanted demonstrated, uh, the type of company business acumen that they wanted to have at that level and say, okay, this is, this is what they're looking for.
 
 But this is what. They need to see in a person before they'll be considered for that director level position. And then what's the gap? What do I already have? And I just need to make sure they know I have and what don't I have yet?  How do I get that experience or that exposure? And then make sure again that they know I've got it  so that that was 1 piece of it was sort of the, the branding, the visibility of. 
 
 I have the skills, I have the experience for that role so that that I'm at least on a list somewhere, whether it's a real list or just in someone's head that okay, she's getting there. She's ready.  And then the other was, and I don't know that this is an opportunity that is always available or that people are always  willing to invest in.
 
 But because I wanted something that was brand new, I really had to work with  the, the people of influence at the company to sell that there was a need for a new team,  not knowing that for sure I would be the person hired.  So it was working with the people who were. Um,  directly negatively impacted by that need not being filled  to help them build a case. 
 
 For creating that team, 
 
 and 
 
 that that takes time. 
 
 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 
 
 Right. Especially at these big companies, they. If it's working well enough,  they don't want to shake things up because it's a huge risk. It's a huge investment. So it was  several years before it was the best time. 
 
 Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And especially when the numbers are looking good, why do we fix something that's not broken?
 
 You're reminding me of a guest I had a couple of years ago. Her name's Anne Hyatt. And she was, um, working at, um, Amazon and Google at the start when things were growing exponentially. And she wanted to be chief of staff to Eric Schmidt, who was the CEO at the time.  It took,  I think, seven years.  It was not a joke.
 
 It was like, finally, and they were like, yeah, we need, in his absence, she's doing everything, you know, nothing goes through without her. But to build that case, talk to us, I want to stay here with you, Julianna, talk to us about that, the visibility piece, especially as an introvert.  What advice would you give to someone who's like, yeah, yeah, reverse engineering.
 
 I got it. The skillset building, I'm working on it. Uh, but it's so dangerous to be doing that in our own little, you know, isolated, uh, world.  Um, and, and  how do we get out of that and be visible without the ick, without the, yes, that, that others do that we don't necessarily subscribe to.  
 
 Yeah, so visibility and boasting are very different. 
 
 Boasting is the ick part. Some people just do that naturally and they love it. It's generally not an introvert. I've seen introverts do it, but the boasting is very different than  visibility or raising your profile or making sure people know who you are and what you do. 
 
 And.  
 
 This actually comes up a lot.
 
 I, I don't know why, but  , maybe because we are generally more quiet. Introverts do get a lot of  solicited and unsolicited advice about raising their visibility.  And whenever I have someone who comes to me asking, how do I do that?  My first response is to ask them, why are you doing that? 
 
 Hmm. 
 
 And, and the answer isn't, oh, someone, my boss told me I have to work on this.
 
 But  to what end is it?  Becoming chief of staff for Schmidt. Is it,  uh, moving into another industry? Like, what is the actual goal that you have? So let's say you are a marketing specialist and you want to become chief marketing officer at a company.  And you, somebody told you, oh, you need to raise your visibility in order to get that career path to, to get that job. 
 
 Well, then it's a lot of exploration of  what do you want to be CMO of?  Let's say you're currently working at a large company and your goal would actually to be looking for a small or mid sized company as a CMO.  Visibility inside your own company isn't going to do you a lot of good. So I would just put that as a side goal for any internal visibility  and really work with that person to focus on.
 
 Okay, you said midsize company. Is there a.  Industry change involved is there not let's let's assume an easier path of you'll stay within your industry.  Then,  can you raise your visibility specifically to the types of midsize companies you want to be chief marketing officer of?  And that's where the strategy then starts to come through is,  do you want your name attached to content marketing that is visible to that type of company? 
 
 Do you want to be at industry events  so that those smaller companies know and see who you are and what you do?  And if it is industry events, what's your role there?  It's not all of us are going to be on stage,  even even the competition to become a speaker on stage is just a lot of work. So not everybody's up for that either.
 
 Uh, is it  being the person at the booth? Is it networking outside of all the formal  scheduled activities?  Is it maybe more of a writing focus starting your own blog or podcast? Like, there's so many ways to raise visibility, especially now in the digital age that.  You don't necessarily just need to go out there and be like, I'm the best and I'm so good at this because that, that doesn't,  it sounds nice, but there's no proof behind it, right?
 
 If you're just going out there and saying, I'm really good, people are like, okay, cool.  
 
 It's better 
 
 to demonstrate your knowledge than to say that you have it. 
 
 Yeah, sure. Versus tell always very, very powerful. And I like how you made the difference between, um, visibility and boastfulness, um, visibility and arrogance because they are not the same.
 
 Um, and, uh, why are you doing it is also, you know, because we often are just following others. Because they're doing it in a certain way. So, uh, this is really helpful.  And, you know, um, this, uh, recent move, Jugana, I'm so curious about this period where you made some moves, you know, made some moves, in all kinds of ways, you know, different continent and different, we were just talking backstage, you're going from  where you used to live in the past with minus 40 degrees Celsius and now you live in a city with 40 degree plus Celsius.
 
 So if you are listening to me and you're like what is that in Fahrenheit, go to Google. I don't know the U. S. It's hot. It's really hot. You guys just start following the metric system. I am so tired of it. That's a separate event. But let us just say it is extremely hot.  You can fry an egg on the road. It's that hot.
 
 So Uh, walk us through this process, you know, the decision making at the time  and the early days and months when it is so damn hard. A lot of us want to give up. And how do you get the visibility to sign, to sign up paying clients? So someone who's listening today, who's, who's in corporate and wants to make that journey is their own, you know, sort of version of introvert  and is curious about this, like walk us through how.
 
 It happened and was it methodical and structured and intentional the way you've always done or were there other forces at play? 
 
 Yeah. So I'll start maybe with a little backstory about why I moved. Um, my husband had been offered an amazing opportunity in Madrid and  It's not that we were just like, yeah, sure, we'll just step away from our entire life in Canada and move.
 
 Uh, I was also fairly burnt out in my position in corporate, although I love the team and the work. Uh, just. There were a lot of things going on in the company that were really exhausting for me and at the time I was staying mostly because I love my team so much, and I still really enjoyed the work,  but I also didn't want to make a move, whether it was internal or external, unless it was worth the change  because, yes, there was that negative element to it, but there were still all.
 
 A lot of positives,  whatever that change was had to offset both.  And when this opportunity came around, we looked at it and have assessed our personal situation and decided. We're, we're in a position in our lives and our career where we can take these risks. So let's, let's do it knowing that it could be a catastrophe, or it could be the best decision in their lives.
 
 Realistically, somewhere in the middle  and my decision to start a coaching business was more. A  practical one than what most people, because I think a lot of people, when they start their own business, it's because they're chasing after something. They're chasing after the desire to be their own boss, have more flexibility, have more freedom, uh, not be beholden to a company anymore.
 
 And my decision was.  I think maybe  typical of me, it was very practical in terms of  my husband, because the company moved him, wouldn't have a break in his work,  but I had to leave my job because they weren't going to move me to Madrid.  And  I needed a way to bring in income  and didn't have, I didn't know when I would get my, my spousal work visa. 
 
 So I kind of looked at, What was I good at? What did I enjoy doing? What do I have skills to do?  And decided, okay, let's  start a coaching business so that I can at least bring in something rather than nothing.  And it was also not my, my 1st venture, um, many lifetimes ago, I was trying to become a professional sculptor. 
 
 And, uh, younger, I was also, I had started a, uh, design and website building company with 1 of my friends. So I had some experience with, you know, marketing, running a business, trying to build up sales.  And  for anyone who's thinking of leaving corporate to start your own business,  make sure that you're very realistic about the amount of work that's involved in  starting and maintaining a business, but also the, um. 
 
 The offset, because you're basically going from having mostly a guaranteed income, you know, and I'll, I'll put a little star next to that because of  all the layoffs that are happening right now. But assuming that your, your job is.  Going to continue.  You've got that steady income. You've got regular money going into savings.
 
 It's the complete opposite when you start your own business. And and even if you have an established business, there's always going to be.  Uh, it's feast or famine. Okay. You're either going to be doing really well or not. And that financial management piece  is something that that I really encourage you to sit down and think about realistically,  because if you're not comfortable with.
 
 The ups and the downs, it might not be something that you want to  step away from a corporate career and dive right into, like, if I were doing this differently, if I'd known 5, 10 years ago, that this might be an option, I would have started to build my business then on the side. building my audience, building my pipeline of clients while I had the stability of an income. 
 
 Yeah, it totally depends on how risk averse we are, um, and, and the appetite we have for risk. So that's a really good point. And what was it like in, um, you know, declaring it? And we have this expectation, people are going to be like knocking down our door and  throwing their credit card at us and it doesn't work that way.
 
 What was it like for you?  
 
 I think anybody who's willing to,  uh, try out entrepreneurship or, or constantly like I have just going back to it.  Is sort of a balance of an optimist and a realist. And that's, I think my situation is I was like, yeah, I've got all these people on LinkedIn. They're all going to be clamoring to be coached by me. 
 
 I needed that confidence to be able to, to start and to sustain myself through all the hard times of creating a business.  But on the realistic side, I also knew that that wasn't going to actually happen. So I had to plan and actually execute on a business strategy that would shift my audience from people who are used to me seeing posting things to say, Hey, I'm hiring.
 
 I have a job to offer you  
 
 to 
 
 an audience where I'm the person actually asking for the job. Do you want to be coached by me? 
 
 Hmm.  
 
 Do you want to have a better career or a better experience at work  with my help?  And a lot of the times the answer is no,  especially right now with the way the economy is. 
 
 Career development, I think, is not necessarily the place where people can spend their money, especially if they're already struggling to  Pay rent or pay their mortgage or  get money or get food on the table, because the price of food has gone up so much. So I'm very aware of the reality of it, but  there's always opportunity.
 
 It's just more finding the people who are in a position  to invest in their career right now and also need my specific types of services. And how did you 
 
 find the 1st, couple of such clients?  
 
 Many of them, I would say, were more through my own network than through LinkedIn or  whatever else people are putting out there for, uh, for marketing.
 
 I do all of that because it's, it's there to build my business. It's the foundation of my business.  But the real clients that I bring in the people who,  uh, are willing to trust me and helping their careers are people that already know me a little bit, 
 
 whether it's 
 
 directly or through, through my network.
 
 A hundred percent. There's a, there's a credibility factor in there as well. Yes. And, um, So Julianna, you kind of covered on this, but, uh, talk to us again. I would like, um, uh, lots of, uh, juicy, uh, tips from you for someone who's listening today, who's,  um, got introverted tendencies and your favorite advice that you share with your private clients on how to get ahead.
 
 In their career, whether it's inside or outside their organization. So, you know, this would be  probably advice that is one of the reasons I became a coach. And I, I'm like, I wish I knew this back then. Right. So that you wish you knew back then the type of advice tips  that you'd like to share.  
 
 Yeah. So we've, we've already talked quite a bit about visibility, which I think is a key piece is kind of getting the right type of visibility for yourself.
 
 Uh, to start, I would say that.  You can probably feel comfortable in not worrying about your introversion so much, as we talked about earlier, people just misunderstand the introversion anyway. So all the things that you know you're doing as an introvert, people probably aren't even noticing because they're looking for different things.
 
 To to kind of tag you as an introvert  and then the, the key thing that I always work with my clients on is  getting really comfortable with, uh, being  honoring what you actually need to do to be successful, even if it's in a very different way than someone else who you see as successful.  Because most of the time, if we're just trying to emulate someone else, but we're not starting from the same place, it's not as comfortable for us.
 
 Or like we've talked about as well, there's all this stuff behind the scenes you don't see.  You may be mimicking behavior that Isn't actually going to get you ahead because you're not seeing the other things they're doing, or it's just so uncomfortable. It's exhausting you without getting you any results. 
 
 So it's, it's really about finding out. Okay, if I want to get ahead, what are my goals?  And what will actually get me there and then the how, like how I actually do it needs to be in a way that feels natural because otherwise, even if you get it, you might just feel like a fraud the entire time because you've gotten there in a way that doesn't feel right to you. 
 
 Yeah, and, um, um.  It's 
 
 exhausting. It is so exhausting.  
 
 Like 
 
 they, let's take an example of,  uh, preparing for a presentation.  One of the classic introverts can't do this thing,  uh, where forget for a second how everyone else would do it. But  if you're introverted the way I'm introverted,  uh, I would  Need to know all the things beforehand.
 
 So I would want to know who's the audience. How big is the audience? Is it purely virtual? Is it hybrid? Is it purely in person? Who else is speaking? Uh, where in the roster am I?  And there's sort of two scenarios. One is you know you want to know all those things,  you don't ask anything because you don't want to come off as whatever you're worried about. 
 
 You end up spending a whole bunch of time stressing out about it. You're ill prepared and it doesn't turn out well,  or you say, to heck with it. I'm going to ask all the things that I know I need. I'm going to prepare like crazy  so that I feel confident when I actually show up for that presentation. and know my stuff and know that at the very least I've done everything I possibly could to be successful at that presentation. 
 
 Now, what you need may be different from even another introvert, but you probably already know what you need. You just need to go out there and ask for it. 
 
 Exactly. If you can be anybody, be this person in the second scenario, because honestly, people don't have time to think, Oh, what would she think of me?
 
 Maybe I'm appearing too demanding. No, actually. You look like you care  and you're asking because you care and you want to give it your best.  But so true what you're saying. And, and, uh, if you are in scenario number one, it is such a negative spiral, um, and, and circle not spiral versus vicious circle, because if you don't ask, then you do, uh, what you think is a substandard job.
 
 And then they may not call you back.  What a pity you wouldn't have known how great this could have been. So, um, very, very helpful. And I'm sure there's lots more and people should sort of, um, highly recommend that people should follow you  and everything you share on LinkedIn. And, um, so Julianna, when you look back in all these, uh, years of experience that you have, is there one standout defining moment that supercharged your career and helped you to move closer to your current success? 
 
 I'm going to throw something there. That's a little unconventional. I don't think it's what your audience might expect. Please do.  It was,  uh, letting go of  the need to separate my work from my personal life.  So, early in my career, I, I really kind of went into it, like, oh, these people don't deserve to know what's going on with me.
 
 That's just work. Work is work, and life is life. I need those things separate. And not only was that just not possible, like, you can't just leave a part of yourself  outside of work,  but  once I, once I stopped trying so hard to do that and Not necessarily went in every day and said, and overshared on what was happening in my life.
 
 But once I became open to developing friendships with people at work, who I actually got along with and find it found interesting and,  uh, started  accepting that my personal connections and my familial connections were also.  Allowed to be my business connections,  like how I found the job at Blackberry. I got hired there because. 
 
 I allowed myself to take help from somebody who is a friend of my husband's  and and not being so hung up on. Well, I need to have my own connections and I need to do this on my own. And well, if if she is just part of our friend circle and genuinely cares about me.  I should take her help because she's giving it to me.
 
 And, and maybe it's just my own hangup that it's not somebody that I met on my own. So once I kind of  stopped  forcing the separation,  everything opened up. 
 
 Yeah. 
 
 And, and even like progressions at work. Some of my closest friends now are still people that I worked with at the last company because we've gone through so much together.
 
 Yeah. Yeah.  I love that this was your answer, um, as an unapologetic introvert, um, because it,  it isn't always easy to let people in. Because we are told so often to keep our guard on. Yes. And there's so much advice on social media about,  you don't have friends in this company, don't tell them everything. Yes.
 
 These guys are not your friends. And, and, okay, I get that. In toxic environments, you have to watch your back all the time, but not everything has to be toxic. Not everything has to be black and white. Um, and, uh, yeah, work relationships can be,  um, definitely, um, transformational. That's how I met my husband.
 
 Um, friend of a friend. And you know, before you know it, and you're like, wow, we have something in common here, but it was at the workplace. Um, so obviously it's different. I mean, I, I told you, I have different sort of extroverted tendencies, but your advice is universally applicable on  letting people in and especially applicable to people who want to look like. 
 
 They have everything figured out  because nobody does. No, nobody does. So, um, Julianna, what's the best way for people to learn more about you?  
 
 Yeah. Um, so I'm most active on LinkedIn. I'll make sure you've got a link to that for the show notes. I also have a podcast called daring to succeed.  There's sort of just short micro episodes.
 
 So my solo episodes are like me, very straight into the point. Um, usually they're like five to 10 minutes. It's just a bit of, uh, support for whatever's going on with you. And then, um, I also have guest episodes that are a little bit longer to bring in expertise that I don't necessarily have to share with 
 
 people.
 
 Dare to succeed, dare to succeed. And your, uh, LinkedIn profile. I'll make sure I share, um, both in the show notes. Definitely follow Julianna. Super interesting. And also, um, yeah, your, your, your. Yao is Chinese, but your, your name Juergen is actually Turkish.  Super multicultural as well. So a lot of the advice that you share, I'm sure it goes across, it goes across cultures, right?
 
 It goes across boundaries.  So, um, Fantastic. I'm really glad we chatted, Julianna, and I wish you continued success with everything you're doing, um, with your work and your time in Spain. And we are recording this just at the precipice of another summer. So, um, I hope you stay, stay cool. Um, and thank you so much for your time today. 
 
 Sunel.  Hey there, thank you for taking the time to listen to today's show. If you loved it, please do leave me a review on Apple.  I search high and low to bring you the very best guests, and I'm so proud to bring you their stories and game changing career lessons.  Best compliment that you could ever give me is taking a screenshot of today's episode and sharing it with your LinkedIn network and tagging me at Sonal Behl.
 
 S O N A L B A H L. Alright, I look forward to spending time together on the next episode. Episode of the how I got hired podcast. Take care of yourself and bye for now.