How I Got Hired

135. Michael Smith: From Oil and Gas to Recruitment Innovation, Redefining Success and Personal Growth Through Courage and Introspection

• Sonal Bahl

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What if the path you set out on isn't the one you end up taking? Our guest, Michael Smith, embodies the courage it takes to redefine success. After thriving in the oil and gas industry, Michael co-founded a recruitment tech company, challenging the typical narrative of career stability. Journey with us as Michael revisits his roots, trading childhood dreams of aeronautics for a global career in energy, and ultimately, daring to leap into an entirely new field. His story is a testament to the power of adaptability and the exciting potential that comes with exploring different avenues.

Michael shares invaluable insights on nurturing talent and the role of encouragement and mentorship in personal and professional growth. As he recounts his rise to a maintenance team leader at Shell, Michael highlights the importance of demonstrating skills and resilience. Breaking free from societal expectations and finding validation beyond job titles is no easy feat, yet Michael's narrative shows us the rewards of stepping outside comfort zones and embracing one's true motivations. We also reflect on the transformative impact of becoming a parent and how it can reshape one's priorities, emphasizing that true fulfillment lies beyond material achievements.

As the world faced the COVID-19 pandemic, Michael encountered a critical period of introspection—his own "great reset." This episode uncovers how meaningful connections became paramount in his life, influencing both personal growth and his innovative approach to recruitment. Through video cover letters, Michael and his co-founder Paul are revolutionizing the hiring process, creating a more inclusive, human-centric experience that benefits both introverts and extroverts. Their vision challenges traditional norms, aiming to rehumanize recruitment and build a global workforce platform that connects individuals to opportunities like never before. Join us for a conversation that promises to inspire and reframe how you view success and career fulfillment.

Follow Michael on Linkedin here.
Learn more about UseVerb here: https://useverb.com/
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Sonal :

Hey, welcome back and thank you for tuning in to today's episode. My guest, michael Smith, is joining us all the way from Perth, australia. Michael has had a pretty successful career in the energy sector in Australia, the Philippines and South Korea, and at his latest corporate role, he was offshore maintenance team lead at a teeny, tiny oil and gas company called Shell. You may have heard of it I'm kidding. It's one of the world's largest and he sounds like a very important dude right In that space. But hold on, there's a plot twist. Two years ago, in 2022, mike decides to leave Shell and his corporate career far behind and starts at a recruitment tech company, something he had no direct experience in, something he's never had any background in. Why did he do it and how has it been going in the last couple of years? And what on earth is this recruitment tech company? That part is the one I'm most interested in To learn all about this and much, much more. Let's welcome Mike. Hey, mike, welcome to the show.

Mike:

What an introduction, Sonal, Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here and tell you about my journey and a bit of the pattern interrupt my Moses moment and where I was and where I am and where we're going.

Sonal :

Mike, that sounds great, so I am super excited to talk about, let's say, your life re-venture. How?

Mike:

far do you want to go back?

Sonal :

The oil and gas world right. So I want to go to these 20 years because you know oil and gas and you were pretty loyal in that sector. You didn't sort of go from oil and gas to retail, to pharma. You pretty much, you know, sort of stayed in that space and I know Australia has lots of reserves. Reserves it's got lots of copper um mining sort of you know professions related to the. The materials are quite um popular, quite common in australia. But I want to know about the kid Mike Smith.

Mike:

The kid Mike Smith.

Sonal :

Yeah, so was this a dream to be in the oil and gas. Like did you have, like I have a two-parter here Never.

Mike:

I think they're the titles we get and they're the jobs we land in. But there's always an appetite for who we are as people and I think that forms us into the people that we've become. I think even at an age of five I used to put the old milk carton box on my head and think I was an astronaut. I had a fascination with aeronautics. I love speed. I'm built for efficiency, I like fast, I like muscle cars, I like fast cars, I like jet planes. I actually wanted to be in the Air Force but with my asthma I had a chronic condition as a child that sort of inhibited that. But I think with who I was at the time as a child I had every toy mom and dad used to give me. I was always there with a screwdriver, you know, pull it apart. I want to know how this goes together. So I had a fascination for how things went together. I had a drive to understand, like I needed to know how this works, and I think that just led me into that journey of picking up tools as a kid, working on cars, working on engines, which also moved into my precision of things.

Mike:

I was very much a perfectionist at a young age and wanted to do everything right, do everything with excellence. I got into architecture drawing. I did a bit of work experience as an architect and I was like, nah, that's not for me, I'm out of school. I then got into civil engineering, which I went this is boring, it's about roads, it's about static forces but then realized, oh, I should just go into mechanical, and the mechanical really brought the science and the dynamics of how things go together, the moving parts of gears and bending moments and forces and fluids, and it really helped me understand not just on a physical, on a property level, how things behave and interact.

Mike:

So that moved me into my career with oil and gas and at the same time I was actually doing a trade in fitting and turning, so being able to work with the tools, the machines, the equipment on the practical side and then apply that to the theoretical side. I was able to put two and two together and that really set me up in a position where I could move forward in the companies that I worked for and then, like anything, as you work your way up in any company, you start at the bottom, you, you deliver, and then you start to deliver through others, you deliver for people, you deliver through communities, you deliver through teams. And that really set me up into those later years where you see the acceleration into the woodside, the Conoco and the shell, but then moving into management, which is another way of understanding how things go together and how people go together.

Sonal :

Exactly. We'll get to that part in a second, but thank you for explaining that. It sounds like third time's a charm, right? You said you tried architecture, you tried civil engineering. You're like it's not for me.

Sonal :

I love this because I'm so tired, I'm so over people saying to kids what do you want to be when you grow up? You can test things, because if you don't, how do you know it's going to be right for you? And guess what? You're doing this again in your 40s, when you completely pivoted your career. So there's a very important lesson here Sort of try before you buy no pressure and give it time, so obviously not like in a day. Hey, civil engineering, so boring, it's not for me. You gave it some time, you spoke with people, but you also got your hands dirty. You got into architecture, you made a few drawings and you're like you know what this isn't lighting me up, perfectly fine. So glad that you did that. Very important lesson there, Not just for children but grownups alike.

Sonal :

And then you know you talked about Shell. So you know, if you had to sort of look back in this period of time, I have a two-parter here because you got into Shell, which is a much you know, sort of bigger I'm guessing, more complex organization. Talk to us about this move. Was it easy, Was it complicated? Getting hired, getting noticed, Was it comparative? What helped you to stand out? That's part one and part two. You know you talked about rising up the ranks in management.

Sonal :

Also, talk to us about what helped you to stand out to be visible to be memorable.

Mike:

Yeah, I just want to come back to your point about the kids. I think we say to children as parents like what do you want to be when you grow up? Kids don't have a clue. Like we actually ask them to think about titles and jobs and like their world's about this big compared to our world, but their world's about that big compared to them. And I think we don't ask those sort of questions where what do you actually like to do? And I think as parents, we need to train up a child on where they should go. And if they like drawing, you can sort of talk to what they actually like why do you like drawing, why do you like this and then help guide them. But if you ask the child what do you want to do, they don't have a clue and they try and relate it to what mum and dad do or experiences or people around them. And that's what really helps.

Mike:

And my appetite for unpacking how things work together was even when my dad was very successful. My time with him was working on cars, pulling, grab a spanner, pull things apart and I could realize if I put that in there and undo that, that comes off Like, wow, I'm learning, I'm understanding and I think naturally, even as parents, we look at the toys children play with. Now. They all mimic what we do with our parents, whether it's a tool set with dad or a baby with mom, they're modeling something that we see. So the children are like I want to do what mom and dad are doing. So, as parents, we have such a great responsibility as mentors to help guide and shape people into understanding what they like and then showing them what the options are, as opposed to you need to be a doctor, you need to be an accountant you got me, you got me.

Sonal :

This is. This is answers made me so emotional. You're so right about that, and you have probably some of your best memories working on those cars and tinkering with those toys, with your dad and and also I don't like to generalize, but that generation, this was the way they showed love. Right like I spend time quality timeize, but that generation, this was the way they showed love. Right like I spend time, quality time together, but I love this. What do you like to do? I love this question and I used to be, I used to light up, and now I follow the same example. When I was a kid, I used to light up. Once in a blue moon, somebody would ask me so what's your favorite subject at school? Ah, the world is my oyster. I could say art and craft, I could say history, I could say math, and they'll be like oh, tell me more. This is so much better. What do you like to do as opposed to what do you want to be? Because it's like garbage in, garbage out.

Mike:

They don't know anything, yet they'll just say what was your favorite subject history history. Yeah, yeah, there's always a why, I liked maths. I, um, I just I. My maths was absolute it, it, it it was rounded, it, it, it solved um. So there was an answer.

Sonal :

It was the opposite of it, was the opposite of history, was the opposite of maths. I love that's. So we. I didn't. I didn't plan to talk to you about this, but this is fascinating. I loved math still about the fourth, fifth grade, and I think the reason was the teacher. I did well because the teacher was like you got it and I was like topping my class. Something happened in the fifth grade and my confidence went for a toss and apparently there's a lot of research that says when girls don't do well at maths, they don't get the same level of encouragement as boys. Boys are like no, no, no, no, push through. And girls are like well, I'm not sure if that happened with me, but sometimes little encouragement is all it takes versus blanket statements like hey, I'm not really good at maths, oh, wow, you've lost before you even started, right, uh, and history is the opposite. So, oh, this is fascinating. I I'm I'm so happy we're talking. We barely just scratched the surface, mike, so one of the biggest things.

Mike:

So it's like you've got to speak into what people are becoming, not what they are. Um, you've got to see potential and sometimes you haven't got people backing you. That's what a parent's role is. It's like I've got you, I'm backing you. It's a safe space to grow, and that goes into work, goes into management, goes into mentorships, goes into people that walk with you, goes into the story that I'm about to share with you with where we're at now.

Sonal :

Yeah, let's talk about that, let's ahead.

Mike:

So your question was look, everything has a season Sonal and nothing's wasted. I think we can sort of go well, that was stupid. This was not, because we're always learning. There's all this multi-sensory learning, that we're learning how we apply things, and I never think something's wasted. So you've got to be careful that you don't allow anyone to give you or them the authority to validate you, because your worth isn't defined by them, it's defined by who you are and who you're becoming, because what is done is done.

Mike:

But I've also found in every season I've had, even in growth, I use that model of delivery and delivering through others. You get to a point where you learn and even as parents we pass down to the next generation. But also there's a generation above us that we draw from to gain knowledge and understanding and wisdom and counsel. But definitely with my experience, with being on the tools, being in the field, being in operations, being on projects, understanding contracts, understanding people, understanding people, services, supply chains my role at shell was very much when I left woodside was actually sort of like a demotion, but the job that was actually was the opportunity and what shell could offer where I could actually do that. I want to get into this company because it's a great company. They look after their people, they're growing, they're the best of the bunch, you know, know. So I looked in and what I had and what I was available to and I thought, wow, I can actually go and apply to this job and then look for opportunities within the company. So by doing that, it took about five and a half months to be recruited at Shell and it was like 450 applicants.

Mike:

It was hard. I went through psych evaluations, I went through assessments, two sets of interviews, and it came down to two people in the end of that and it was really me just saying to them hey look, I really want you to believe in me because I can do what you want me to do. I'm going to do the best job for you, and that's that part of you being able to sell yourself. You've got to. We want that opportunity to get to the interview and say I want to sell myself. I've got the skills to pay the bills. But I also want to sell myself because I'm bringing something that no one else has, which is me. I'm a brand and no one else has that, so it's bringing my uniqueness to the table.

Mike:

But, as I went into to work with Shell, I started to realize that there were people within the organization that were doing stuff that I had been able to demonstrate before in previous roles. And it was very hard with the actual line manager that I had, because I could see that there was opportunity for growth and I was naturally saying I can do that, I can do that, and he's like Mike, I know you think you can do that, but I haven't seen you do that. But what I was able to get out of it was having opportunities to demonstrate, which is where we can sometimes say, instead of saying I know how to do that, well, they're just words, you've actually got to show people there. There's so much truth and actually seeing is believing. So, being able to have the opportunity to demonstrate that I was put in positions where I could stretch myself and stretch those roles. And because, coming back to that mechanical mind of wanting to know how things go together, it's been a natural trait of mine, even with people. I bring people together. It's my Italian heritage the big families, the big people, and I love people. I think people are great and I think when you see the best in people, you get the best out of them.

Mike:

So, naturally, having a technical mind and also a people skill, which is relationships, I was presented with some opportunities to go into GoJ, which is where Prelude, which is the largest floating gas facility in the world.

Mike:

It's 500 meters long, it's enormous, it's a mammoth of a project and I was able to pull together a workshop which is a startup ramp-up plan with all the key figures.

Mike:

Now I didn't know how to bring the place on to station or to build that ramp-up plan, but I knew that it was a jigsaw puzzle and I needed a surveillance engineer, you needed an operations manager, you needed a mechanical engineer, you needed a workshop for the supply chain, you needed certain people to start the conversation, and what I was able to do was facilitate a workshop where it's like what do you think needs to happen this, what do you think needs to happen this, what do you think needs to happen this?

Mike:

And we started building a picture and a sequence and what that actually allowed me to do is to build a startup ramp up plan or bringing Prelude on station with the key figures getting into that planning mindset, and that put me in good stead with the way that I was able to work with people and work with the management. That put me in a position when I got back to Perth well, this guy's good. And then there was some opportunities to apply with that and I used that opportunity that I was able to demonstrate. So, always looking for opportunities to demonstrate what I'm capable of and what I can do, because we know what we can do, but we've got to sometimes step out of our comfort zone. That presented the opportunity for me to become a maintenance team leader, where we were solely responsible for looking after the maintenance for a multi-billion dollar project and getting this place up and running.

Sonal :

Very, very important that position. I've worked in a couple of factory environments and the safety trainings alone are like I mean, this is so important, the role you're talking about. But love this and I want to recap this for the listener because you shared a lot of gems here. I've got the skills that pay the bills. What else can I demonstrate, right? Um, as a baseline, a lot of us do have the skills that pay the bills, but I love that you said demonstrate like three times. Yeah, and it's the spanish I'm remembering. So you said italian.

Sonal :

You gotta show it like examples, like show, not just say you can do something talk is cheap and and putting your money where your mouth is right, putting action where where, what with everything you're talking about that people remember. People remember results, right? So, um, very important to be talking about how this helped you to stand out. I want to stay here just for a minute, mike, because I have a follow-up question. I have this with my own clients, my career coaching clients, but also in general. You know, you said I took it almost. It was pretty much a demotion, which means that it wasn't a lateral move, it wasn't upwards, it was actually a step lower. And almost always, and almost always, almost always what I have seen is, when you go somewhere where you take a step down, it ends up being like I don't know if you remember Paula Abdul one step back, two steps forward. Yeah, uh, that song, what was it?

Sonal :

opposites attract yeah, I'm dating it was one step forward, two steps back the other way around, the other way around, but you, but you got it. You got it right.

Mike:

I got, yeah, I got yeah.

Sonal :

It's like that angry birds um catapult. You know you go back and then you go so far ahead. But that aspect of going back is very difficult for our fragile little ego. And what are people going to think? I'm earning less. It's less title La la, da, da, da la. Did you have any of that stuff when you were contemplating coming to shell?

Mike:

absolutely, it's um.

Sonal :

But because you're human right.

Mike:

Hello, I think naturally we, we look at life as I've got to get a, I've got to get a job, a better job. I've got to get a car a a better car. It's a performance orientation, it is a comparative spirit. It is naturally where we compare ourselves to others. Sometimes our title in a job is what validates us. Naturally, what do we always say to people? We don't even listen to the words coming out of our mouths. We say to people what do you do? It's not who you are. No one says tell me about yourself. It's very much a qualifying question when someone says what do you do? And this was the position I was in even at Shell. It was like I know it. For Shell I'm now the maintenance team leader of Prelude. I fly away offshore, I travel the world. There is some authority with that.

Sonal :

It's designed for pleasing our ego.

Mike:

Yes, totally, and. But it is. You start to look at things and we'll get to the shift of where, where things have changed. But you've got to come back sometimes and say, why do I do what I do? Because if you're chasing the next title, the next position, even in my one of my past roles which I had, which was pre Woodsideside, there was this position where I gave people the authority to validate me. It was 12 years of my life, but the title and the responsibility, the job was taken away from me in a heartbeat. And I'm like I've worked 12 years to to earn my right and my position in the company. I was loyal and within a split second it could get taken away from you. And it was like all of that time and effort and and being so vulnerable and so easily fractured in that, in that season where, for whatever happened, there was like wow, um, I shouldn't give people the authority to validate me, because if you do do that, you'll continue to come to work, to get a pat on the back and one day it'll stop and then you won't know who you are. So it's's very important.

Mike:

Even in my life, I've learned to reflect, I've learned to take stock, I've learned to see how things work, understand the self and create space to think and strategize. Because even in that season later on in life, I went through a stress cycle where I thought I had it all together. I thought I could do it all, and my mind was saying I could do it. My body was saying no and, um, I actually had a bit of a breakdown. But, um, me, being so arrogant and prideful in that it just pressing through, started to realize that I've got to keep going forward. I've got to keep moving forward, but then there's got to be a time where you've got to take time to reflect, you've got to take time to stop, you've got to take time to rest so that your body can bring everything back, because you're not, you're a machine.

Mike:

And then, moving into those later years, it really affects who you are as a person, but very quickly, if you're the kind of person that's going around this is who I am by what I am one day that'll stop. And you're the kind of person that's going around this is who I am by what I am one day that'll stop and you're left to go and smell the roses. And if you don't know what they smell like you're not going to enjoy them and you're going to be sitting there going who am I? Because that's what it's all about. It's about who am I. It's great to have a great job, it's great to have a great title, it's great to have a season of life that was enjoyable and is a reward for your labour. But money is just a resource. It is not an identity, and when you find comfort in that and security in that, it can really mess with you because it becomes that pursuit and it's never enough and becomes a comparative spirit and it's not healthy.

Mike:

So becoming a dad Sonal is a really moving part of my career and just going, what's life really about? What's important, where is my value, where are my priorities? Because naturally, we say this and we do that. We've got to be aware of that and we've got to listen to that, because if you don't, you start to see part of self manifesting. And why am I bitter, why am I upset, why does that bother me? And if you don't, you start to see part of self-manifesting, and why am I bitter, why am I upset, why does that bother me? And if you don't look in the mirror and actually try to unpack and have people you can walk with and talk with and and that know you, you you you'll never understand why. And then you're just not the person that you'd hoped you'd wanted to be, and it's, it's not about the title oh no, it's about what?

Mike:

makes you tick yes.

Sonal :

So talk to us about that, because you, you are, you have had time to deal with it. You've had time to sort of divorce yourself from the ego stuff and and explain it very well today, but back in the day, when you were looking at the contract at shell, I'm sure it wasn't easy, right? So what do you want to say to the person today who is thinking about making a change and temporarily it does look like a step back, and they are, you know, for all their reasons, they are hesitating.

Mike:

You've got to understand your end game. What's life about? What's important to me, what gets me out of bed, what motivates me, what's my passions, what's my skill set? There's things that we do a lot. I'm a people person so I understand that my skills are transferable. It doesn't have to be in oil and gas. It doesn't have to be just about the mechanics, the maintenance. There's an understanding of how things go together. But if there's an opportunity where you can skill up and you're at a job that's doing nine to five and you're like I'm bored and you're tapping out in a career path, that's like there's no progression, there's no opportunity, there's no stretch. Sometimes a change is good to find that. But don't just look at the cookie cutter Now I've done it three or four times and obviously the shift in where we're going to go to in the new venture that we're working on and what we're doing as where we've gone into. But don't be afraid to. Don't continue to do what you keep doing. We do what we know how to do instead of what you need to be doing.

Mike:

You've got to listen to your voice. Go and speak to people like yourself, stonehall, and say I need some advice. This is what I'm good at, how do I do this? How do I do it better? You need that sounding board because you only know what you know and when you, like I said, with a parent, someone that's a mentor can come in and say do you know what? I reckon you, something you don't see would be really good at this.

Mike:

Have you thought of that? No, because we are so narrow minded, we're so negative. We've got our own narrative and it's like the world's against me. It's never going to get better. But it's not going to get better if you don't do something about it. So you've got to act on that. You've got to. If you're irritated, try and understand it. What's the next step? I've got to go and speak to someone. I've got to go and talk to someone. But if you get up, you go to work. You don't like work. You go home, you go to bed. You get up, you go to work. You don't like work. You go to bed. Guess what? After a couple of days and weeks, you don't like work.

Sonal :

You build a habit, you build a behavior where it's like I don't like to go to work, you don't like work, you don't like yourself. That's very true. And because we were talking about childhood and kids, I just remembered something so randomly when, when I was a kid, I remember there was a show on tv and it was somebody taught it was a disciple. It was I'm getting into religion for a second. I'm not overtly religious, but it was a disciple of one of the hundreds of gods we have in India. And the guy asked the god, what is the most surprising thing to you in the world today? And he said the most surprising thing in you in the world today. And he said the most surprising thing in the world is that human beings think they have time and they think that death eludes them. Right, the point is, if you're unhappy at work, do something, because we don't know what tomorrow brings, and the last thing we want to do is take time for granted. It's not a way to live, especially when we spend so much time at work.

Mike:

So now, and it's measured by effort, and we do say this to people a lot I'm busy. Just how are you, i'm'm busy? It's an identity, it's, it's artificial significance.

Mike:

But badge of honor what we're craving is connection. But when I say I'm busy, I'm actually saying go away now. We don't actually understand what we're saying, but we say it because there's power in the tongue and there's there's definite life in the power of the tongue. And and time is that one thing, that, wherever it goes, whether it's with you right now, I'm giving you my time, I'm having your time. You feel valued, I feel valued. It's a unit of effort. Now we naturally write emails yeah, I'll catch up with you, I'll talk to you, but when we don't actually give people our time, this is the biggest thing I've had with my children. My mom said this to me love is spelled T-I-M-E. Wherever your time goes is where your love goes.

Mike:

And this was also another shift for me. With all the work, the late hours, the working for the man, the working for the business, the working for the product. It's like what is actually important to me. And you've got to have that position where, on my hand, these are the things that are important to me and if you don't prioritize them, they are prioritized by your time. So, um, if you're not looking after yourself, you're not looking after your mind, you're not looking after your family, you're not looking after your job. Um, those are the things that have value and that's where your time needs to go, because that's where you get the return on investment. And a lot of my time now needs to go into my kids, so that I'm just present, I'm available, I'm at their sports games, I'm at their school excursion. I went to the zoo yesterday with my youngest son, matthew, and he was like my dad's coming To him. That's his world. My dad came to the zoo.

Sonal :

I love that. Your mom said love is spelled D-I-M-E. That's a keeper, that's a keeper. I love that so amazing. So, mike, you alluded to this, so you wrote somewhere that after 20 years I got tired of chasing titles for the sake of a nice salary and an inflated ego. So talk to us about what was going on just before this latest venture. What was going on and what was the impetus to say to the man I'm putting this in air quotes Screw this, I'm done.

Mike:

Yeah, look COVID. I think COVID was a blessing. It was the great reset. I think, naturally, misery loves company. There was this is wrong, that's wrong. It's that narrative. But everything slowed down. There was a reset of. That was normal. This is now the new normal. Why do I do what I do? We're busy, busy, busy. Now we slow down.

Sonal :

And Australia especially because it was always in the news. Right, new, normal. Why do I do what I do? We're busy, busy, busy. Now we slow down australia, especially because it was always in the news. Right, it was really insulated for a good part of two, three years, yeah, even more yeah, look it's, but still, the world's a big place.

Mike:

There's narratives, there's there's talk, there's there's mindsets and and um, it's depending on where your lens is is how you feed that. But with covid it just you couldn't do what you normally did. You couldn't do what was normal. Why do I do what this is it? Why do I do what I do now? I found with the, the, the term that I had with Woodside or Shell I started as a, as a, as a turnaround plan. I went to turn in engineering and then I went into the maintenance team lead role, which was around a four-year term, where I was going to use that four years as a launch pad to go and start exploring the rest of the world as an expat. I got three passports. There was an opportunity there to travel, but again, it was the next title, it was the next responsibility, it was the next paycheck, it was just why do we do what we do? It was the next title, it was the next responsibility, it was the next paycheck, it was just why do we do what we do? And I suppose my dad said look, what's the end game, son? Why do you do what you do? And I understand my dad and his success. He could speak with that authority and go, son, just do what's important. He's had a lot of time to slow down. He's got three degrees and he's been able to give me a picture of like why he did what he did and what he had. But now he's reflecting on that and there's that knowledge that's coming down from him and I just I just thought it was the next job, it was the next project, it was the next swing, it was the next upgrade, it was the new car, it was a bigger car, it was getting a caravan and I'm just like it's just stuff and it's just you're working for that. And I suppose I got to a point where I felt like I'm now at the top of the food chain. I'm working for the biggest oil and gas company in the world in one of the best roles that you could ever dream of in the world, one of the best companies in the world. I'm the biggest facility in the world. What's next? Like I'm tapping out. It's like an Olymp. I think you're trying to chase the next high and these are term in the industry. It's called golden handcuffs. It's just like why do I do what I do?

Mike:

And I suppose the season I was in it was like I'm offshore, I'm working, I'm traveling, I'm away from what's important to me and being away from that, I was having a walk down the they call it the green mile. It from that. I was having a walk down the they call it the green mile. It's where all the modules are and it's this corridor for the process and you do a lot of thinking time. You go and do your walks, you go see, you meet the team, you engage with the team and I was just like, oh, is this it? And I just felt this are you satisfied? And I'm like it's all right.

Mike:

And naturally this narrative comes in when I tell people what I do I'm satisfied, I work for shell, I work offshore, and it comes back to that. Why are you giving people the authority to validate you? And you consistently start to chase this and I've got to go to another meeting, make another meeting, present another meeting. I'm just like what does it look like outside of shell? What does it look like after of Shell? What does it look like after Shell? What does the next role in Shell look like?

Mike:

And I suppose that is sometimes a road less traveled for people, but you've got to be comfortable with where you're at going. Okay, I'm comfortable, I was very comfortable, like the money was great at Shell, the benefits were great, being financially free is a great place to also be. But then you just go. There must be more, you know there must be more. So being in a position of comfort and being satisfied and still working hard, putting excellence to your role and doing things well, you've got to be able to sort of entertain. What does that look like?

Mike:

So, leaning into that, I walked through this thought pattern for about six months, just going what does it look like? What does it be? Am I satisfied? Am I not? Because you go to work, you do what you know how to do and you do it well. And then there's other things and I just sort of lent in that, spoke to my wife, talked it through and she was like what You're thinking about changing? And the world has a funny way of working things out, like with with COVID, and then the company went for a reshape and with the reshape it basically put everyone's role in jeopardy, where you could either apply for your role again or you could look at other roles. And it just got me thinking for a few things with.

Mike:

I chose to do four years as a launch pad. I didn't want to stay offshore. It wasn't my. If I stay here, this is it. I just constantly go offshore. Come home, I don't like the disconnect, the reconnect, the rollercoaster of being home, being away. It's not healthy, it's not good, but it works for some.

Mike:

But there was a season that I'd committed to, which was four years, and then there was opportunities to look at some expat roles and other opportunities around Shell and I'm just like I don't know. I think I'm done. And that's where the intercept came with being in a position where Paul, who was my very good friend, who's the founder of User, who I'm working for now we were talking and I've always had a genuine interest in what he's doing he goes why don't you come work for me? And I went what? And it was just I would have been continuing to do what I was doing. I probably would have found another role in another part of the business or another company, another go back into maintenance coordination or something.

Mike:

I know how to do, but I'm like it doesn't. There's no passion there. There's no drive there. I know how to do, but I'm like it doesn't. There's no passion there, there's no drive there. I know how to do it. I was like, oh, you want me to come work for you?

Mike:

And that's where we transitioned into this next season of my life with YouthVerve, which is the exciting part, where I was okay with entertaining these options. And I think the biggest thing that Paul ever said to me. He said, michael, it's not what I need, it's who you are. And that was the part that really kicked me, because it's like it's who you are is what I need in my company. And I think that really made me start to realize it's not about saying I worked for Shell, I worked for Woodside, I worked for Conoco, I worked for all these companies that define me, because naturally that does define you. But then when someone sees something beyond the paper, beyond the skill set, and says I actually need who you are, because it's only myself who can bring that, and that's where, yes, the skills will pay the bills, but everyone has a brand and everyone's got to carry that, and that's what takes you into next season.

Sonal :

Wow, what a what a what a story. I'm sure it wasn't easy going through this. It wasn't easy for your wife because the comfort, like you said, the stability of full-time work and a comfortable paycheck that disrupts the status quo. So I'm glad you said that it wasn't like a eureka moment. It was something you thought about for six months. You spoke to your dad, you spoke to your wife all the people that matter and this is what you did.

Sonal :

So I like two specific things. You said why are you giving them the authority to validate you? That is so important. I've just returned.

Sonal :

Right now we're recording this at a time where I've just returned from a 15-year MBA reunion and you know that stuff the outwardly stuff if you're viewed as successful, it could change in a couple of years. So it doesn't matter. What matters is how you think about yourself, right, and not give anyone the authority to validate you or not validate you just as important, right? What people call the imposter syndrome. And the second sounds like a match made in heaven. It's not what I need. It's it's not what I need, it's who you are today.

Sonal :

So you were like oh, you must have been swooning. You're like sign me up and you know the at the same time, I was thinking out loud, you know, when, um, we're given a lot of advice, sometimes unsolicited advice, from friends, from parents, especially from family, and one of the most common things I hear is never get into business with friends, never lend friends money and all of that stuff. Don't mix money and friendship. Don't mix business. You're obviously the exception to that, but were you, did you hesitate a bit, no matter how well you know each other? Did you hesitate a bit because there is a little bit of a risk?

Mike:

no, I think they say that because it's it's emotion involved and it's raw, but I I think the best relationship you can have is with someone you know um it. But there's a point I think we don't naturally like to work through conflicts. I'm very much a I mean, my family has come from a phase of the Italians. You've got a problem, you say it, you speak it, I'm sorry. We're open, we're honest, but we're also very secure people. We know who we are and I think even with Paul, who's the CEO of Useverb, he's always someone that has believed in me and that's great to hear about what you're doing. It was never about what are you doing now. What are you doing now? What's the role, what's the position? There's always been this natural inclination of how you've been. So I think the fact that I've journeyed with Paul and I understood Paul and I knew Paul, I don't think we actually know our personal value sometimes and I think in a world we live in today, sona, we're not speaking into people anymore and our motto on our shirt, that's it, it's speak life, you know, and we look at what we can take from people and that's, whether it's a position or a title or a making me feel better than you, and I think the best thing you can do sometimes is speak into someone else and see the value in them, because people need to hear that. And if there's things you like about people, go and tell them and say do you know what? I love your smile, I love the way that you interact, because that's the way the world works, that's the way we work together, that's the way that you bring a room together. That was the same skill set, which was a soft skill, which was why I was put in that position at Shell to bring that team together for the startup ramp-up plan, because it was like hey, I know there's something in you that they haven't seen yet. What do you think? What do you think? And bringing the room together. One of the other things I did at Shell was I was the president of the social club and that was just bringing the fabric together of people and helping people understand, because at the end of the day, look, there's always a job to be done, but if you can do it with people you enjoy working with, I guarantee you get so much better out of people. So, with Paul, he was very much a good friend of mine that we're journeying with and even pre-use.

Mike:

Paul had a very successful robotics company. Just, he's like an elon musk of perth. He's got top 40 under 40 ernest young awards, engineer of the year twice. He had a robotics company uh, very impressive. He's got two degrees, uh, mechatronics, marketing, um, and he was doing the cool stuff.

Mike:

He wasn't the, the cookie cutter. I've now got my title, I've now got my job. He's just, he's like a mover and shaker. He's an entrepreneur. He'll never have a boss, he's his own boss. He's like no, I'm the man and I always respected that, because there's a quiet confidence and an arrogance that goes with that.

Mike:

It's like, yes, I know who I am and I know what I am, and that's why I've always surrounded my people with strong men and strong women that can, that want to do things, that do want to do greatness, do want to do big things, and I think we're all built for greatness. So I just don't think we tap into that sometimes and we come back to that, that dream. I wanted to be an astronaut. What happened? You know what, what? What stopped you? And I think the world does bring you down and it does discourage you and it does level you out, but you've got to say no, I'm better than that. So, yeah, if you're not hearing that, you're not saying that, you've got to surround yourself with the right people that can speak into that and pull you out of that and lift you up and say this is what I see. Wow, I forgot, that's who I am. And I think Paul did that for me in that moment, which was very well timed, and the season.

Sonal :

I was in Perfect timing and he's like Mike.

Mike:

I need magic Mike. I need you to bring the life to the business.

Sonal :

A different kind of magic Mike and wow, and it happened. This is amazing. So, yeah, good for you, perfect timing. I think the owning your greatness unapologetically is is what's. It's what's needed. Don't have to be arrogant to do it. I love that quiet confidence. I love how Adam Grant talks about it. So this is beautiful. Talk to us about UseVerb. So the listener, you're like hey, useverb, u-s-e-v-e-r-b. Talk to us about this company. Where did this idea come from? What was the tech stack looking like? This is a completely different world for you. How did you learn all of this stuff? Talk to us about is it funded, is it venture backed or is it, you know, going sort of a different sort of Canva route, looking for investors locally, like where is the company today and what do you do? And I think when you explain this, this is going to be helpful to the listener, because you're going to know, dear listener, you're going to know why I'm talking to mike about this, because this is right right up my right up my alley.

Mike:

Go for it, mike well, strap yourself in you for a ride here. So, um, look, paul pre-gfc was a very successful in his robotics industry. Uh, he was doing cutting edge stuff, um, and he was growing at an accelerated rate. He had contracts with the mining industry and he was moving into that phase where the company was about to grow parabolically and really kick off and he wanted to build a bigger team and a better team. And because he was winning all these awards and he was innovative, he was disruptive. It was robotics man, it was winning all these awards. Then he was innovative, he was disruptive, it was it's robotics man, it's cool, you know, it's cool stuff. And he had all these people turn up for an interview, which was like, I mean, maybe like was it five or 600 people turning up for an interview? And he's like whoa, I cannot interview all these people. And it comes back to that time thing.

Sonal :

I turned up like on site.

Mike:

They were like oh yeah, yeah, he had over the week, 500 people coming for this interview. Because he was like, if you're interested, come meet me. And he's like, well, this is too many people. And it's like he just the problem. He was like I don't have time to meet all these people, but I would love to meet all these people. So the thing that he to everyone that turned up and called themselves an engineer by what they were they had a pair of RM Williams boots, they had a pair of Chinos pants and a checkered shirt and a nice fancy pen.

Mike:

I'm an engineer, but he's like where's the innovators? Where's the creators? Where's the bright sparks? Where's the people that think outside the box? Not the people that just do what's required? That's the 70% of this world. But there's also this capacity of people that like to move past that and he says I couldn't see that on paper. He said I read the resume. This is what you do, this is your skillset, this is your experience. And he goes. If I just had a short little video of who they were, I would know within a split second of who I want to actually meet and see in the interview. So same thing we do on a first date. It's literally that 27 second pitch where we're like hey, nice to meet you. I like what I see. It's not visually, it's just. I like what I'm feeling about. My gut's telling me something I want to know more. I've got a good feeling about this.

Sonal :

I like what I feel. I like what I feel right Like. See here all of that.

Mike:

So that's where the idea was born.

Sonal :

That's where the idea was born by over, like people applying because he said come and see me, and then later he was like no, no, don't come and see me, like I can't, I can't.

Mike:

Paul's a real positive guy and he wants to meet people and he will give anyone the time of day. He's a great resource and he's a real mover and shaker in the industry. But it's literally. There's something we do naturally Sonal, which is natural, which is people we're relatable there's physically, sexually, emotionally, mentally, biologically everything goes together.

Mike:

And we've, in this day and age, we've tried to fabricate that. Facebook's about building relationships, instagram's about creating moments, pinterest is about ideas, twitter is about opinions. I mean, come on, we're not doing what we should be doing. And what do we do?

Sonal :

We say we're busy and we push everyone away, the social part, the social part of social media. We've got to find that way to reconnect.

Mike:

We've got to rehumanize recruitment and it's not fair. Again, I'm talking to this what and who narrative, measuring someone based on what they are. We're taking names off resumes. Now we're taking pictures. We're taking people out of the equation. We're starting to use chat, gpt. Now Everyone's starting to look the same. What makes us different? It's you. You're unique, you're a brand owner. That's what you're selling. If everyone's the same, the point of difference is you. What are you bringing to the table?

Mike:

So Paul took this idea on the back of his robotics company. He went to New York, san Francisco, silicon Valley, built a proof of concept, tested it with Under Armour, tested it with American Express, tested it with Johnson Johnson's, had a pre-sale of the Super Bowl and went whoa, this is getting big, this is cool. Wanted to bring it back to Australia and make it an Australian-owned company. There's a real something about being a proud Australian. And he built his dev team. He got his brother involved who's Grant, who's the CIO of the company and started building the people that believed in his vision. Well, our vision is here to connect and coordinate the world's workforce. We want to become the world's biggest employer with no employees. And that started the development of getting a product that works, to a product that we can scale, and the whole idea now is for the last six years of development. This has all been bootstrapped by Paul in terms of where he's moving forward, which is great, because we haven't got people coming into the company saying you must do this.

Sonal :

Looking over your shoulder. Wow, it destroys Six years, six years. It started in 2018. And I'm sure you had memories of your own.

Mike:

Seven years now.

Sonal :

Seven years and I'm sure you had memories of your own five and a half months getting you know, getting that job at Shell. Five and a half months, getting you know, getting that job at shell five and a half months is two-third of a human pregnancy. Yeah, yeah, you know. And and for you said 450 applications. So now it's, now it's, so it's live. Use verb is live, it's ready. Like how do we get access? Is it b2b?

Mike:

talk to us about that yeah, it looks b2b2B, b2c, literally. Just to come back to where we developed we developed a lot of this in stealth. We built our authority. Everything you see on Instagram, facebook, tiktok, medium, twitter, all those platforms it's all organic. It's real, genuine, organic growth which was positioning us in the market, to position ourselves globally now and we've only just gone to market early this year and we had a proof of concepts go to market it was late last year signed up 200 companies. We know it sells. That was the one-to-one that was testing the product in the market. Now we're starting to move. We're Paul's in Houston. He's been there for two years to get this around the world. We've just set up our sales team in South America. We've got our marketing team in south africa, our dev teams in estonia.

Sonal :

We've got paul and houston. We've got affiliates around the world. A quick question are you guys hiring? We're always hiring hey, dear listener, check out the website, use verb. So wow, it sounds like you know that sort of startup scale up phase with so much going on, so I'm guessing it's B2B to C as well right.

Mike:

So we're very much a company facing product, which is allowing job seekers to apply in a better way, because what's happening in the market at the moment Sonal is people continue to do what they know how to do instead of what they need to be doing. I will continue to write a resume. Every job you go to you can have a fancy website, you Continue to write a resume Every job you go to. You can have a fancy website You've got to put a cover letter.

Sonal :

No one reads them, no I know no one reads them. I've been saying this for years that I get torn down Like, oh my God, it's a way to distinguish yourself. I'm like, really I never read a cover letter in my life. Maybe it is, but no one's reading them.

Mike:

The person that wrote theirs with their hand on their heart and the person that wrote it on ChatGPT they both look the same.

Sonal :

They both look the same. A lot of them are ChatGPT. Why would I waste my time reading that anyway?

Mike:

And what's happening in the market now. Sonos is making it even worse for recruiters With the Quick Apply feature as well, with all these platforms. When you've loaded in these applications, it actually scans your application and it says to you as a job seeker these are all the jobs you can do. So what do I do? You get reduced to the double tap. I applied on all these jobs 50 jobs. Now, as a hiring manager, I've got 50 applications on top of 50 people, 250 applications coming in for people that had the quick apply. When I start calling them up saying hey, so no, I'm just ringing up about the job you applied to, you're like, hey, which job? Sorry, how much are you paying? Not interested. So it's not helping anyone. And this is where the market Mexican standoff has happened. Job seekers are getting sick of writing resumes and cover letters because nobody reads them and companies are trying to find great people. So there's something that needs to happen, there's something in the shift and companies are trying to find great people.

Sonal :

So there's something that needs to happen. There's something in the shift. I'm imagining Nacho Libre, jack Black oh my gosh and that's what you guys are doing. So I love that. And, mike, you know this question I'm going to ask you. You know this is coming. There's always the what if, what about? So talk to us about how you answer this with people who criticize and say this looks great. Talk to us about how you answer this with people who criticize and say this looks great. But it's very beneficial to people who are naturally confident in front of the camera. Right, you're talking about yourself. It's a video cover letter. Maybe I don't feel confident being in front of the camera.

Sonal :

Am I going to be discriminated against? Already there's ageism, sexism, racism, colorism all the reasons.

Mike:

What would you say to that?

Sonal :

Tokenism. Look, you've still got to go to the interview.

Mike:

Right, yes, you've still got to meet someone and say, hey, well, I'm good for the job. Now, if you want to get a foot in the door, where's the old fashioned way of just walking up to the owner and saying, hey, I'm a hard worker, I do a good job, I'll turn up on time? Just the basics. You can do that in a video. Now what we're also finding coming back to your point with the separation of introverts, extroverts one thing we're finding is, firstly, it's giving extroverts who aren't good on paper sometime. Now, I'm a very much an extrovert but I'm also good on paper. But I love the ability. I can just get to the interview, I can sell it, I can show you what I can bring. I can bring the people element and as you move up in promotion, it's not about what you can do, it's who you are, because you need to work through people. Now also for the introverts if you're not confident in an interview, guess what You're going to walk into that interview. First impression you have a wet fish handshake and say, hi, I really want this job. That's your first impression. Now, if you can do a short little video and you can practice it, it's short form 27 seconds. It's like TikTok for jobs, where you can actually record it, you can delete it, you can go forward, you can go back and when you're happy with it how good would that be You're the one making the first impression. As much as the market has changed and it's about trying to find people. If you really want that job and you want to stand out, why don't you do something that makes you stand out? Put a face to the name, allow them to meet you before they meet you in person and this is where the platform comes to life is, instead of people hitting that quick, apply, the people that do the video want the job.

Mike:

Because it's not easy. I've got to put who I am in a video and say, hey, I really want this job. We're even finding it working in the disability sector. We had a case with one of these big employment service providers where they actually had sent in their resume and I speak from experience with my own sister. She's mildly autistic.

Mike:

The question we're always asking as employers we want to help, we want to work with disability, but we're actually asking not me to be rude, but how disabled are you? How much do I need to carry? How much do I need to manage and you can't see that on paper. That's why the employment services come in to say I want you to see the person Literally, I want you to see the person for who they are. Now, if they can do that on the video which they did with our platform, what they said no to on paper they said yes to in the video they went absolutely now all we're offering is more points of data personality first, resume second to give you a more well-rounded hiring approach and allow you to hire with confidence.

Mike:

Now understood if you can meet people before you meet them, have a a short little video and go. I liked that. I want to know more. Guess who's come to the interview the best of the bunch, not the best of the bad hires that, when they walk in the door, the cost of your business, the cost of setting up the interview, the cost of actually training that person that doesn't want to be in the job after six months because you've shortlisted someone else, based on an ATS system that looks at keyword searches. That sets up an interview with a hiring manager that says where did you get these people from? It's about people, right? So let's get real and stop dodging the bullet. We've got to rehumanize recruitment. We've got to put people back in the application and see the value in people. Bring the connection back and show people that have value. Give them an opportunity to say I really want this job. Can I show you, as opposed to someone that knows how to write a script in AI that cheats the system.

Sonal :

And the cheating, the system and the AI and automation is. I think we're at an extreme sort of end of the spectrum right now and you're bringing it back to the middle, which is the human centric approach to recruiting, like it was in the 80s and 90s. The human centric approach to recruiting like it was in the 80s and 90s, but without the ick, without the walk-in 400 people like we used to see in the movies back then, because this is a way to meet them before you meet them. I like that. I like that and I also think that, yes, first introduction, it's the first introduction and yes, it is hard. You're absolutely right, none of us likes to, particularly.

Sonal :

You know, covid forced a lot of people to sort of look at themselves on zoom and there were a lot of like body, like you know, I don't like how I look and and there was a lot of research on how, um, people were like getting under the knife for cosmetic surgery because my nose is too long. I never had to see it till I had to look at myself every day, five days a week during zoom meet. So it's not easy, right? But at the same time, if you're secure in yourself, secure ish in yourself, good enough. Um, there is less competition compared to the quick apply, because everyone's going to the easy apply, the quick applied. One button and your, your resume has gone to 50 jobs. Uh, and someone calls you. It's literally like I order, like if I order 10 things on amazon and, and and people are like, hey, you, you asked, I'm like, oh, there's a, there's a box outside, oh, I wonder which one.

Sonal :

It is forgotten about it yeah, but with this, you're not going to be doing mass sort of applications right. You'll have a more targeted approach, so it's really a win-win in that sense the best thing is we had a.

Mike:

We had a, a dispenser optometrist. I don't know if you heard of spec savers.

Sonal :

They're a big yeah, they're a big brand.

Mike:

Uh, we just signed them up and um congratulations one of the owners of spec savers just says I want people that represent my store. I want people that understand my customers. Now he had looked at a couple of applications for paper and he's like, when the person came in, they were like they weren't well presented, they weren't smiling, they weren't clean cut, they didn't tuck their shirt in, they didn't speak well, and it's like look, let's get real here. You can't write that on paper. You need to see it right, like everything, seeing is believing. When someone says I'm good at this, show me. We're moving into a marketplace now where I trust you. But post-COVID, you need to back it up. You need to verify it because I'm going to call you out on it. I need to connect with the results and with the person that applied to this job.

Mike:

She saw that they had a QR code out the front. You've got any jobs? Yes, scan the QR code. We're doing video now. She was a little bit nervous. Go to our website, have a look. It's on our YouTube page, specsavers. She was a little bit nervous, but she's like I got sick of writing about my strengths and weaknesses and she's like I've done the job before. I love your brand. I'd love to come a job. When she walked into the store, the owner was like hey, sarah, nice to meet you.

Mike:

She's like wow, they know my name. I feel like I know you Exactly. Tell me a bit more about you. It was already. It already broke the wall down where we were concerned about what are they going to think of me Now when someone says to you I liked your video, yeah, you're like you, like me and this next generation that's coming in. So I just to get a little bit deeper on this. They are asking do I matter?

Mike:

Now again coming back to speaking life, if we can shift the market and stop taking who out of hiring and put who back into hiring and say I like you, I like what I see. That's going to boost confidence in people. That's going to boost the market. That's going to boost the economy. That's going to connect and coordinate this workforce. That's going to boost confidence in people. That's going to boost the market. That's going to boost the economy. That's going to connect and coordinate this world workforce. That's going to get us out of the rut we're in, because it's about people exactly like sarah got the job. She's like. I actually really enjoyed um coming to the interview because I felt like they knew me yeah, and I was actually so excited about moving past instead of going having a bad morning a bad interview, sorry, you know.

Sonal :

Suitable because because the way historically we talk about interviews is like it's so comforting Instead of going having a bad morning, a bad interview. Sorry, you're not suitable, because the way historically we talk about interviews is like going into battle, and this one is like hey, we're on the same team here, you know. Let's make this happen. That dude wants her to get the job. She wants to get the job. A lot of people don't realize actually it's a collaborative effort and if a tool like this can help, then why not? I have a quick rapid fire question for you Before we moved. I can't believe we've come close to the end. We've been talking for a while and it has gone so fast, mike, but I know it's late for you.

Mike:

Let's do a part two.

Sonal :

You're right, we might have to do a part two, but before I let you go because you said you're hiring a lot and the person who's listening and you're like Mike sounds like a great guy. I'd love to work with him and I did a quick search on LinkedIn while you were speaking right now. It says something like 30 employees already probably, maybe approximately. What would you say to someone who's interested in either working at UseVerb or a startup scale up that's going to explode soon and you're looking for an A team? Give me the top three qualities. You don't have to explain what they are, just give me the words, the adjectives, the top three qualities that you look for when you're recruiting your A team.

Mike:

It's your attitude, not your aptitude, that determines your altitude.

Sonal :

I trust Mike to come up with a tweetable, because everything you've said so far has been a tweetable. It's about character.

Mike:

It's not competence, don't get me wrong. You've got to have competency. You've got to be able to do the job, but you've got to work with people. Work should be fun. You should be able to come to work and not worry about doing nine till five. If you're not doing that at work, find another job. Find something that gets you out of bed that you really enjoy doing, because you never work a day in your life if you do that.

Sonal :

Yeah, 100%. I love that. It's your attitude, not your aptitude, that determine your altitude Beautifully said. One last question for you, mike. If you look back on the last couple of decades of your career, what is that one standout defining moment that supercharged your career and helped you to move closer to your current success?

Mike:

your name is your brand. So when you do things, do it with excellence, I'll be honest. So I'm actually a lazy person. I don't like to do things twice, but if I'm going to do it once, I do it right first time and I do it with excellence because when I do it, people know that I did that and when I do things, it gets done. So, um, put your name on it, because if you don't get it finished, even my, my, uh, my dad just said is, if you start something, you finish better, because everyone knows how to start something, not everyone knows how to finish. So if you've got a mindset of you, look at the first day of school. Everyone's got a new lunchbox, new uniforms or a new job, new career, or you're going to start a workout or you're going to start a run. If you say you're going to do it this is what teach my kids, even with sports and and studies um, if you put your name to say I'm going to do it, you better do it.

Sonal :

Yeah, I mean, is there a particular memory? I don't want to hear your excuse, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there a particular memory or moment that comes to mind that that moment supercharged the way you're, the way you're talking about it, the way this was something my dad used to drill into me.

Mike:

I don't want to hear your excuses, I want results. You said you would do it. You're you're I want. But that's where my mindsets come from. It's like with every problem. I see I'm already looking at three options. So Dad's built this capacity for me. I find it hard to sit with grief sometimes because I'm already moving into the healing process of like we need to move forward. Where sometimes I find it hard with my wife, we've got to sit there and grieve. But it's about having a proactive approach of sometimes you need to sit with things, sometimes you need to move forward. But I'd approach of sometimes you need to sit with things, sometimes you need to move forward. But, um, I'd really say, if you start something, make sure you finished it, because that's what you measured on. Um, yes, it's, it's like everything. It's it's the last thing you did. It's not what you intended to do, it's not what you were going to do. It's what you did. Um, seeing is believing and uh, talk is cheap.

Sonal :

So you say you're going to do something I like. I love that. You ended way Beautiful. And what's the best way for people to learn more about you, Mike? Where can they follow?

Mike:

you Usewebcom, we're going to be the world's biggest employer with no employees. We are a completely new way to hire. We are the people's job board. We're just like every other job board, but better. Going to market right now in 2024.

Sonal :

And you're such a great ambassador to the company Global domination. That is what Magic Mike is going for. You heard it here first. Ladies and gentlemen, mike, this has been such a pleasure. I wish you continued success at UseVerb, at everything you do. I hope there's a book coming and beyond. Thank you so much for your time, your energy and your generosity thank you so much, so I really appreciate your time as well.

Mike:

Uh, I do value these and I love, I love a platform to, to, to speak life into the market. Even your listeners you never know who's listening, but I'll just encourage them to, to reach out to, even if it's yourself. They need advice on where they're at and where they're going. It's really important to find people. That it says for lack of vision, your people perish. So find your people, you find your purpose. So, if you like what Sonal was talking about, continue to listen, get fed, speak life, go to market and be the best you can be.

Sonal :

Thank you. Hey there, thank you for taking the time to listen to today's show. If you loved it, please do leave me a review. On Apple Podcasts. I search high and low to bring you the very best guests, and I'm so proud to bring you their stories and game-changing career lessons. The best compliment that you could ever give me is taking a screenshot of today's episode and sharing it with your LinkedIn network and tagging me at Sonal Behl S-O-N-A-L-B-A-H-L. All right, I look forward to spending time together on the next episode of the how I Got Hired podcast. Take care of yourself and bye for now.